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Poster: Classic_TV_and_Radio_Fan Date: Nov 13, 2008 10:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

...Will you throw a party? Really, Everybody on IA seems to hate GM so much that there will probably be dozens of "Bye Bye GM" parties across the United States. Please remember to invite me, OK? I'll bring lots of dip!

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 13, 2008 1:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

GM is only the fourth or fifth domino to fall in what is likely a long list. I think we are going to be in a depression within 4 years that is going to make '29 look like a cakewalk.

Check out the info in some of the articles on Chris Martenson's website and formulate your own opinion and plan.

Read the Bait and Switch, Financial Distress and Deflation articles for some sobering stuff.

http://www.chrismartenson.com/

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Nov 13, 2008 1:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

Unfortunately, I tend to agree based on all the signs and things I've been reading.

... and that $50 oil is going to shoot right back up in the coming months....

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Poster: buscameby Date: Nov 13, 2008 2:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

Just my opinion but we will all take it hard financially if GM or any large manufacturers fail because of their own stupidity or someone elses.

The loss of these types of jobs will be devistating to the overall economy. The loss of tax revenue and the increase of unemployed to the ranks of those competing for less and less jobs will prolong the depression that will surely ensue with such devestating consequences.

As for the unions in this country they protected many workers from harsh working conditions and collective bargaining gave them the ability to help fuel the wage structure in ways that kept management from exploiting the induvidual worker. But as with most himan endevour greed on both sides look to have cooke dthe proverbeal golden goose.

Since we all sat back and watched it happened I believe the consequences will take a deep bite out of the asses of all but the extremely rich who probably fucked everyone to get to their current status.

I am a little bitter right now as I was just laid off by a bunch of greedy bastards who chose to lie to me about their company when I was hired and rater than fix the problems they created; they fired my entire department at a extremely difficult time to find alternative positions.

The company over all is operating at over a 35% EBEDA, a unbelievably high rate in the current economic enviroment.

So those who are so eager to see the Big 3 fail, I hope your the first to see the down side of their demise and not the innocent who work for or are sustained by the synergistic companies that utilize their goods and services. Unless your one of those super greedy bastards, someone you know will be effected by them going under.

Be very careful what you wish for!

Thank you, good night and Blessings Be if you believe in such things.

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Poster: boltman Date: Nov 13, 2008 3:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

Catch-22. Detroit fails and 8 million people with families lose jobs and the government loses $150 B in tax revenue. Bail them out and they keep using a failed business model that rewards the lowest common denominator. Unions had a valuable purpose, but it has been corrupted by greed. I hate to be so cynical, but everything has become shades of gray...rampant consumerism has to stop. We really were right, we don't own things...we are owned by our things. There was a time when we believed, we still can! Keep a good spirit, be nice and kind...I sound like Pollyanna, but I've been in public education all my life - teacher, principal, asst superintendent and I believe in the goodness of people. We just have to find it again.

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Nov 13, 2008 3:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

A voice of reason, they keep coming out of the woodwork.

Yeah, I hate to see anyone lose a job but rewarding failing behavior is like giving college scholarships to high school drop outs.

It don't make no cents.

Someone will jump in a gobble up the scraps and build something from nothing as usual. All good dogs go to heaven.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Nov 14, 2008 11:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

Nice one boltman.

We just need strongs strings on the Detroit bailout, since they're known killers of electric cars.

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Nov 13, 2008 1:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

Be careful what you wish for....Once GM goes the other manufacturers will follow. Then Detroit is history. That's a lot of folks out of work permanently not to mention surrounding areas. I have never been to Detroit, I only know of it by reputation but if this does happen it will not be good for the US,no matter what your stance is on the quality of the vehicles. For the record I own foreign.

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Nov 13, 2008 3:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

"Be careful what you wish for....Once GM goes the other manufacturers will follow. Then Detroit is history."

Have you seen detroit lately?

Doze it and build electric car plants, it's done.

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Nov 13, 2008 4:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

I'm afraid you are right.

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Nov 13, 2008 4:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

And emoticons are verboten now according to a new fatwah:

"Emoticons are forbidden because of its imitation to Allah’s creatures whether it is original or mixture or even deformed one and since the picture is the face and the face is what makes the real picture then emoticons which represent faces that express emotions then all that add up to make them Haram."

Deadhook is going down!

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Poster: spacedface Date: Nov 14, 2008 11:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

>>And emoticons are verboten now according to a new fatwah:>>

Timesuck. I got yer fatwah right here.

So let people do what they want. They're not trying to verbot Christian or Nazi emoticons are they?!

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Nov 21, 2008 3:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Don't read this

http://www.archive.org/details/dontfeedthetrolls

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Poster: fenario80 Date: Nov 13, 2008 2:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

I agree with you, too. But the question is $50 billion for them to plod forward on the same self-destructive road for another year or two, or $50 billion to invest in new fuel and low-fuel technologies? I reject the former and support the latter, for all the reasons you state. The auto industry is much too important to the US economy for us to just stand by while it dies, but we need to be careful that we aren't just supplying short-term life support.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Nov 13, 2008 3:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

It's evil to provide thousands of folks an honest living wage with health care and a decent retirement program. Even nastier that they actually used to (gasp) make a profit from year to year. They surely squandered their economic health away by failing to build cars as good as the Pinto when we demanded better mileage from our vehicles. (Jesus, maybe we should have thought about all that cash going offshore for oil in '73, musta been stoned.)

What were they thinking about staying in business when the Japanese government subsidized Toyota and Nissan into the US marketplace? If they were smart, they woulda folded up the tent right then. Can't compete with that.

Complete fucking idiots to get involved in the mortgage markets with GMAC. Nobody will ever make a dime on property and housing in today's world.

I bet they utterly turned a blind eye to the cost of healthcare for their employees and retirees. Shouldn't have offered up such lucrative scratch and bennys for those working class rubes anyhow.

Good riddance, they never did shit for the working man or the economy anyhow.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Nov 13, 2008 5:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

Yeah, I hate driving. I hate driving a big fat Cadillac across country with a glove box full of stanky. I hate driving across the plains and into the mountains,down into the desert and to the sea. Stoned as a goat, listening to the band on a big honking Bose stereo up really fucking loud with the windows down and the cool air rushing in. I hate driving and thinking about Kerouac, Cassady and how things were, you know back then. What I hate most, I guess, is the freedom. From now on, I'll just take the bus. Everybody happy?

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Nov 13, 2008 6:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

" From now on, I'll just take the bus. Everybody happy? "

Not me. I don't feel guilty for driving

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 13, 2008 7:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

Late to the party! Damn.

I only have a few tidbits to offer. Nothing new...just disregard, but I feel compelled...not sure why.

Tidbit one: it appears one sticking point of the GM agreement on benefits is they hold the line on 1) NO COPAYS, and 2) NO DEDUCTIBLE. Is that modern health coverage? Can you really have that as non-negotiable?

Tidbit two: I hate the idea of bail outs, rewarding folks for getting it wrong, but somehow, someway, the financial markets biz is a tad different (don't call me on this! I am in no position to defend it logically), and I just view them as more deserving than some entity that literally FOUGHT tooth and nail the past 30 yrs to get themselves where they are today: in charge of a product that sucks.

I don't know enough about the biz to argue my way out of this paperbag, but somehow it seems the bailout to start with is ever so marginally defensible, and though one might show me that the absence of a bailout for GM will have equally catastrophic consequences (will it?), I just feel I can't go that extra step with them.

Damn. Wish there was more military history in this equation, or straight up notions of Keynes and Milton. Maybe there is...NC was right--the russkies drove US/GM trucks all the way to Berlin!

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Nov 13, 2008 8:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

From Mr. Young:

Find a new ownership group. The culture must change. It is time to turn the page. In the high technology sector there are several candidates for ownership of a major car and truck manufacturer. We need forward looking people who are not restricted by the existing culture in Detroit. We need visionary people now with business sense to create automobiles that do not contribute to global warming.

It is time to change and our problems can facilitate our solutions. We can no longer afford to continue down Detroit's old road. The people have spoken. They do not want gas guzzlers (although they still like big cars and trucks). It is possible to build large long-range vehicles that are very efficient. People will buy those vehicles because they represent real change and a solution that we can live with.

The government must take advantage of the powerful position that exists today. The Big 3 are looking for a bailout. They should only get it if they agree to stop building autos that contribute to global warming now. The stress on the auto manufacturers today is gigantic. In order to keep people working in their jobs and keep factories open, this plan is suggested:

The big three must reduce models to basics. a truck, an SUV, a large family sedan, an economy sedan, and a sports car. Use existing tooling.

Keep building these models to keep the workforce employed but build them without engines and transmissions. These new vehicles, called Transition Rollers, are ready for a re-power. No new tooling is required at this stage. The adapters are part of the kits described next.

At the same time as the new Transition Rollers are being built, keeping the work force working, utilize existing technology now, create re-power kits to retrofit the Transition Rollers to SCEVs (self charging electric vehicles) for long range capability up to and over 100mpg. If you don't think this technology is realistic or available, check out the Progressive Insurance Automotive X prize. Alternatively, check out Lincvolt.com or other examples.

A bailed out Auto manufacturer must open or re-purpose one or more factories and dedicate them to do the re-power/retrofit assembly. These factories would focus on re-powering the Transition Rollers into SCEVs but could also retrofit and re-power many existing vehicles to SCEVs. These existing vehicles are currently sitting unsold at dealerships across America.

Auto manufacturers taking advantage of a government bailout must only sell clean and green vehicles that do not contribute to global warming. No more internal combustion engines that run exclusively on fossil fuels can be sold period.

No Big Three excuses like "new tooling takes time". New tooling is not a requirement for SCEV transition rollers.

Build only new vehicles that attain the goal of reversing global warming and enhancing National Security.

Government legislation going with the bailout should include tax breaks for purchasers of these cars with the new green SCEV technology. The legislation accompanying the bailout of major auto manufacturers must include directives to build only vehicles that attain the goal of reversing global warming while enhancing National security, and provide the financial assistance to make manufacturing these cars affordable in the short term while the industry re-stabilizes.

Eventually the SCEV technology could be built into every new car and truck as it is being assembled and the stop gap plan described above would have completed its job of keeping America building and working through this turbulent time.

Detroit has had a long time to adapt to the new world and now the failure of Detroit's actions is costing us all. We pay the bailout. Let's make a good deal for the future of America and the Planet. Companies like UQM (Colorado) and others build great electric motors right here in the USA. Use these domestic electric motors. Put these people to work now. This plan reverses the flow from negative to positive because people need and will buy clean and green cars to be part of World Change. Unique wheel covers will identify these cars on the road so that others can see the great example a new car owner is making. People want America to win!

This plan addresses the issue of Global warming from our automobiles while enhancing our National Security and keeping Detroit working.

Neil Young, activist (Bridge School, Farm Aid) rock legend, has assembled a team that in the process of transforming his gargantuan 1959 Lincoln Continental from a gas guzzler into a showcase for green technology and sustainability. The car will be entered into the Automotive X Prize that offers a $10 million prize to develop a vehicle that can get 100 miles per gallon or better. The almost 50 year old Lincoln, one of the biggest, heaviest production cars of all time, has been re-named "Linc Volt" and is the subject of a feature documentary called "Repowering The American Dream" that is now in production under the aegis of Young's Shakey Pictures.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 13, 2008 9:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

Sounds good to me; heard someone today, along with T. Freidman, arguing that if they do go for the auto bailout it should have a lot of restrictions on it (can the CEOs, hybrids are the primary focus, all the MPG req's, tear-up the union agreements, etc., etc.), and I suppose that if it does go thru with that, then maybe at long last they will come around (I thought that was going to happen in 73!? As I sat in my gas line in my VW sqback I was sure they would get it right...how naive can you get?).

As a sometime bleeding heart though, it is the case you do feel sorry for folks. The notion that EVERYONE should own a home seems so appealing, right? I used to think it should be so (now I am not so sure). The notion that everyone that works their butt off for 40 yrs should be entitled to a great pension plan seems reasonable, but what if their company really does deserve to go under? Shouldn't they forfeit their great pension? Is that too severe?

Tough issues, and fortunately, I get paid to talk about the DEAD hereabouts...Right? Hey--where do I check up on my benefits package here? After posting for two years, don't I have a common-law agreement with Diana and Tyler?

I better not get carpal tunnel...

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Poster: veblen Date: Nov 13, 2008 11:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

"I thought that was going to happen in 73!"

one of the most surprising and frustrating things about aging is being able to look back and say: "didn't we already go through this and why didn't we get the problem corrected then..."

the energy crisis and problems with the auto industry are a perfect example...

it almost sounds like a broken record of history hearing similar, if not the identical , energy saving pleas and seeing the same public service announcemnts and hearing the same back-assed logic of the auto companies...etc., etc., etc...

it seemed the country's attitude was changing earlier in the year with the higher gas prices and all but I am now not seeing that same attitude. Though it doesn't take much of a price change for people to get off of their high horse regarding cutting consumption and back behind the wheel.

Unfortunately, I do believe it will take one more round to get everyone on board and actually having true change. Just hope it doesn't take bottoming out to get us to that time of change; and by change I mean moving away from oil dependency for transportation. Then we will continue to have a supply for important things like plastics and polyester suits for salary men and ambulance chasing lawyers...

why am I thinking of the graduate?..oh yes: "Plastics"

This post was modified by veblen on 2008-11-14 07:11:21

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 14, 2008 6:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

Ha! Stupid little story, but I was at a lecture with a bunch of young college kids and the prof was talking about plastic degrading bacteria, and he looked like Dustin H., so at the end, I smirked and asked "what DOES he (the prof) have in common with Dustin?" No response. I said: "plastics" in that same confident fatherly voice. No reaction. Had to explain about the movie.

Pathetic.

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Poster: veblen Date: Nov 14, 2008 7:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: "thanks for the mammeries mrs robinson".

pathetic is right...one GREAT movie to say the very least...

the only negative about the flick is that they have the bay bridge going in the wrong direction, having the top level going East toward the biggity-biggity O and berzerkeley...though the only reason it hits me is because I live here and think about it when I take the bridge...

plus it was possibly the first time I saw breastises on the big screen..."thanks for the mammeries mrs robinson"...

that story reminds me having to explain that paul m was in a band prior to wings..."no, he wasn't..."...one of those discussions/people that you just want to run from but it was on a date...

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Nov 14, 2008 8:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

Went through a few times. As part of my application to college in '82 I wrote an Anti-Car / Pro-Bicycle essay. Imagine how much could be saved if people did not use cars for any errands that required less than 1 mile of round trip travel?

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Poster: veblen Date: Nov 15, 2008 8:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: traffic deaths linked to increased walking and biking....

hey jglynn, I was thinking of biking and your essay only to see this in today's local fish-wrap:

"Traffic deaths and injuries soared in 2007, a trend that appears to be linked to the increasing number of people walking and riding their bikes."

rarely speechless, but that line just has me shaking my head since a more probable explanation for the increase is talking and texting while driving. HANDS FREE!!!

I come close to being hit multiple times a day by people driving with their in minds into conversation and not on the road. Of course the response after almost hitting you is always the same: "sorry." like sorry really helps after plowing into someone... Funny, I was thinking last night it might be time to move since I don't know how much longer my luck will hold.

Once I was crossing an intersection that had just given me the walk signal only to see a woman on the phone flying through the light coming towards me. She was less than a few yards from me on the phone and it was one of the few times that I knew no movement would help and I was counting my blessings. As I was looking at this woman driving while talking and her eyes blinded by thought she was broadsided by a car coming towards me in the intersection. She was about a yard from me when she was hit. She went into a 360 spin up onto the sidewalk where I was retreating, almost hitting me a second time in the span of seconds.

When her car stopped I ran over and she still was talking on the phone saying: "I have no idea what happened but someone just ran into me..." "I will tell you what happened lady, you almost killed me and the woman in the other car"...

I was just in shock, but the woman that hit her, who was in the right with the light, was pregnant; and it was an ugly scene getting her out of the car. Fortunately she and her unborn were ok. Without a doubt, the accident saved my ass. Still brings a shiver to my spine just thinking about it...

HANDS FREE!!!

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Poster: paulypecker Date: Nov 15, 2008 5:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: traffic deaths linked to increased walking and biking....

Quite a story you have to tell. Honestly, I just got chills after reading about it. Glad to hear you are still with us as well as the mother-to-be and baby. I have had similar experiences but not to that degree of danger. I see, mostly women,on their cells all the time and wish the authorities would crack down on it more aggressively. I still can't comprehend how someone can actually text and drive at the same time. I'm not a texter myself but have to assume it is quite distracting to do while driving a car.Complete disregard for the safety of others and at the very least,themselves. And how can the reason for the increase in pedestrian/cyclist "accidents" be from more of them out on the street? Like you said, it has to be for reasons such as the ones we're speaking of,right? Who wrote that article in the paper anyway? Do you have a link? I'd be interested to read it.
Goes to show, you don't ever know-Keep you're eyes peeled when out on the streets and even on the sidewalk! Stay safe.

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Poster: veblen Date: Nov 15, 2008 5:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: traffic deaths linked to increased walking and biking....

here you go paulypecker:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/15/MNCI144733.DTL

actually I just read the entire thing myself and it still blows me away that the onus is not being placed on the cars but on the pedestrians and cyclists, with only a single line about phones and texting. Granted, I am biased toward the ped/cyclist but my objective observations from ten years of daily walking here tells me that bad drivers are the bigger problem.

I do recall seeing the CHPs stats for pushing the Hands Free law last year and they showed clearly that phones and texting were causing increased accidents and fatalities.

Though I love hearing the illogical argument that talking on the phone or texting is just like eating while driving. I don't know about you but I never screamed or laughed at a hamburger leading me to take my mind off of the road. Of course eating while driving can be dangerous as well (e.g., when the fries drop on floor, ketchup on your shirt, etc., etc.) but eating normally doesn't impair your thought process as carrying on a conversation does.

Also I believe that the majority of cyclists attempt to obey the traffic laws since in most jurisdictions bikes are equal to motor vehicles where the law is concerned, but unfortunately the majority of drivers do not see this equality and to me that is the root of the problem. As I once told a judge in el paso traffic court: "if I followed the letter of the traffic code I would be dead because I am not treated as an equal except by law enforcement." At least I had a smart judge who said: "case closed." Honestly it might have had more to do with him being a cyclist and knowing the truth than being smart.

So for a good portion of my time in tejas you could still drink beer and drive, thanks to the lbj mentality. Then drivers couldn't drink, only passengers. I haven't lived there in a decade, but I do believe it is now like most states where open containers are illegal.


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Poster: paulypecker Date: Nov 15, 2008 7:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: traffic deaths linked to increased walking and biking....

Thanks veb. I was not familiar with the traffic scene in SF before so this was an educational reading for me. After reading it I have to assume now that some bicyclists are some
what at fault if they are not obeying the rules or just riding recklessly. I think it's a "two-way street" kind of scenario where everyone has to do their part in keeping the roadways safe for all. Still think it's hideous that people actually text while driving-it seems they're just asking for trouble. Thanks for a "good" topic of discussion.

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Poster: veblen Date: Nov 15, 2008 7:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: traffic deaths linked to increased walking and biking....

that is true about some cyclists but I do believe if they/we were shown any respect the streets would be more peaceful and safe, or at least it would be a beginning for change.

Unfortunately cyclists seem to fall in line right after skateboarders as being seen as urban revolutionaries and the cause of many problems. More than once, I have seen cops stopping and berating peaceful skateboarders while heroin sales and other crimes are taking place within eyesight. By peaceful, I mean someone that is just commuting down the street and not doing tricks or anything along those lines.

one thing that always gets me is having cyclists treated as kids and being talked down to in a patronizing and condescending tone. "when are you going to grow up and drive a car like adults..."

drivers and cyclists are most likely two groups that will never get along...

cyclists here like many cities have a monthly critical mass to disrupt traffic and show some power, but even though I see what they are trying to do and am in favor of it, I am not sure it is changing many people's minds in the driving community for the positive. funny, I have a feeling if the skateboarders attempted a critical mass the national guard would be called out.

thanks for letting me ramble on it, since it is an important topic to me.

time to listen to the wildwood boys 63-02-23 and then it will be the black mountain boys...spending an evening with the early jerry bands...

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Nov 13, 2008 12:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

If you are referring to the GM or General MIDI standard instrumet set that crept in like a computer virus into the band's gear supply their will be mixed reviews. Cold FM synths sounds and the dead don't mesh all that well if you want my opinion, I would have liked to see more moog myself...

If you are referring to the auto manufacturer, that's what happens when you pay people $20 hourly wages to work on an assembly line so they can pay their union bosses cut while the rest of the world uses cheaper labor.

They also build SUV's, Trucks and 8 cylinder cars that people don't buy as much anymore due to higher gas... which is costing me less last night than I can remember.

Who cares, the more we prevent the possibility of failure, the more we eliminate the chance of success. Let em fail, they failed to market a competitive alternative to honda's and toyota's (chich are made here now anyway, go figure).

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Poster: rastamon Date: Nov 13, 2008 1:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

I agree...maybe bust up a few corrupt Unions...see if the workers will settle for a 30% wage cut. But can the US survive without Plasma TV and it's other fat habits?
It's a very spoiled economy...personally I can eat healthy on less than $20/wk, shun TV. My bike, feet & beat up 95 Neon gets me there. I work 10hrs/wk for rent.
Of course I don't have a life...haha

Romance without finance is nonsense!

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Nov 13, 2008 2:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

" If you are referring to the auto manufacturer, that's what happens when you pay people $20 hourly wages to work on an assembly line so they can pay their union bosses cut while the rest of the world uses cheaper labor. "

I don't know what you do for a living but whatever it is I hope you are making minium wage with no insurance and no Mother's basement to move back into

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Nov 13, 2008 2:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

JOTS, what has the labor movement ever done for the working man and this country???


... yea, i served you up a big ol' fat softball...

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Nov 13, 2008 3:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

They did a lot of good things, like woman's suffrage and civil rights movements.

Now laws are in place to insure overtime pay, famliy medical leave, overtime pay, discrimination, child labor laws etc. Have a greivance, call an attorny and sue their ass.

This is not political by the way, just another example of exploitation of the middle class by the power hungry.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Nov 13, 2008 4:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

" This is not political by the way, just another example of exploitation of the middle class by the power hungry. "

geez NC. Am I actually agreeing with you now? Maybe I've had you all wrong?

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Nov 13, 2008 4:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

I don't know what you're problem is with me honestly, I am the middle class and unions are not immune to the same corruption, greed, and exploitation taht plagues any large organization... now you see why I am against "big government"?

Wrong is wrong, regardless of what hole your plant your flagpole in.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Nov 13, 2008 4:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

I guess we agree even though we see it from different angles. I don't disagree that unions can be just as corrupt as big government or big business. It's the human factor, some are just inclined to be greedy and power hungry and motivated purely by selfish interests. I do however think that government CAN still be what it's supposed to be in theory - the will of the people. I definatly don't trust leaving it up to the " free" market. If we don't have the ability to monitor big corporate interests they'll fuck us all.

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Nov 13, 2008 3:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

Thanks douchebag, I'm self employed and don't have medical insurance and there are no basements in florida and my parents don't have shit, they have stayed with me when they had no where to live. Why should a lineworker make more than a public school teacher? Tell me that one? we pay idiots millions to throw balls around and pay our teachers peanuts, why not fix that senseless inequality as well?

I'd love to hear why a manufacturing job pays more than a police officer or a medical assistant. Please enlighten us.

I worked with a guy who had to park 6 blocks away so the teamster wouldn't destroy his truck. We had to sneak in the building to avoid getting into fist fights and work under a giant rubber rat all day with death threats.

Go union!

I helped bankrupt a profitable parking authority with a class action lawsuit long ago, got a $1000 check at 16 because I signed a union card the day before I got laid off (it was a seasonal job and I knew when the last day was). Turned a money making machine into another cog in the wheel of a municipal bureacracy. They never turned a profit since...

Just stating the facts.

Why would I work for minimum wage anyway? What a massingil...

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Nov 13, 2008 3:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

" Why should a lineworker make more than a public school teacher? Tell me that one?"

I don't necessarily think they should. I am a complete advocate of investing heavily into education. I don't believe you can have an enlightened society without strongly placing value on education for ALL of our society regardless of economic or social class. I think that teachers, especially the good ones, are predominately underpaid and under valued. Can you imagine how much more they'd be undervalued and underpaid if they weren't in a union? I don't know about where you live but where I live people bitch and moan about having to fund what I consider to be one of the most important foundations of civilization.


we pay idiots millions to throw balls around and pay our teachers peanuts, why not fix that senseless inequality as well?"

I guess we're actually in agreement. Unfortunately it can't be fixed until our society gets their priorities straight but I'm not holding my breath. America is more often than not comprised of selfishness that rewards individualism over the collective interests,values the conqueror over the humanitarian.

There are many flaws and inadequacies of Unionization. In fact I work with some. I have a college degree and am considered a skilled professional and yet I work with others of less education and skills that make the same or more than me because of their union. These people get guaranteed raises no matter if they are a hard worker or lazy sack of crap. Clearly it's unfair and doesn't reward based on merit like it should. Having said this, what's the alternative? If it wasn't for the labor movement and people organizing and making demands, where would people be? Working more hours for the least amount of pay possible which in turn breaks down families and our society in general. I find it reprehensible that we buy into this idea that we need to strip down the value of our working conditions and living standards to match third world Country injustices to be able to " compete." It's pure blatant greed. Why do we, or rather some, allow ourselves to be the pawn in this argument? Why isn't the argument tilted towards fair working conditions and livable wages? I believe in healthy competition and free market but this isn't the free market, it's the corporate exploitation of the masses and our planet.

I'm not gung ho on the idea of bailing all of these companies out but I'm not going to place the blame on the backs of honest workers.

And last, I don't mind you calling me a douchebag as long as I get to be my wife's personal one : )

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Poster: fenario80 Date: Nov 13, 2008 2:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

Surprise! I wholeheartedly agree with you on this one. $50 billion to bail out a dying industry, that is failing because it couldn't or wouldn't keep pace with world trends seems like an insane waste to me. There are much better ways to spend that kind of cash, like on improving public transit as well as alternative- and/or low-fuel private transportation.



This post was modified by fenario80 on 2008-11-13 22:36:17

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Nov 13, 2008 3:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

It's obvious, supply and demand. They let toyota spank them and they deserve it. Notice Walmart profits up? Anyone want to guess why? Lower cost products, cheap labor = profit = jobs

Did I mention I am a ford person?

I drive a nissan that I bought at a chrysler dealer though.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Nov 13, 2008 4:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Non-Dead: When GM goes bankrupt....

" Lower cost products, cheap labor = profit = jobs"

never mind, every things back to normal, we disagree again. Shitty jobs by greedy pricks.